Have you really worked out your overheads

If your a new courier like I am, have you worked out your overheads?

Cost of van (and replacement) Running costs per mile? (fuel) Service, oil tyres Insurance GIT PL H and R

I worked out other day it costs me £3 per hour based on ten hours work, and then Fuel on top,

any thoughts how much is it costing you?

My little old combo costs a total of £0.271 per mile travelled, this is everything except insurance.

This is why I won't take on any work from these jokers that offer 60p per mile. Even with no dead mileage a 5/6 hour trip to london would only earn me about £6 yet there are those noobs green enough to let these peole take advantage of them.

I calculated my cost over mileage rather than hourly.. I know what my cost is but would rather keep those figures close to my chest...

and I agree with Nicks comment..

I think actual costs should be out there, most start off thinking that fuel is the only outlay, earn £100 and only £45 fuel to come out of that, great Until after a few weeks the more wary work it out and realise the actual cost is closer to £90 and they've been taken the pee out of.

One of the most overlooked costs is either bad debt or the cost of chasing bad debt

The argument that will be used by those that perhaps pay lower than you'd like, is that if you get a co-load or "backload" (yes i know i hate the term too) then any equation is deemed irrelevant.

The days of getting a return load and that being a bonus, have been replaced by some needing a return load, as the original job hasn't paid enough.

That is where we seem to be headed

Whether we like it or not...

You shouldn't be working or making people promises of a backload, Fair rate to do the outward job and if a backload arises , even at a lower rate (as we expect backloads to be) it is a bonus and a better payday.

Doing job for cost and the occasional backload so you will maybe make a profit some days is a bit of a shoddy way to go about it.

Overheads need to worked out per mile because that is how you charge out your services.

My over heads are worked out per mile, the point i was trying to make is whats included in them, Sorry i did not make it clearer, my fixed over head is £3 based on ten hours work,

I think very few work out their overheads, and i think that's where much of the "blame" for low rates comes from.

Akhtar Haulage said:

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My over heads are worked out per mile, the point i was trying to make is whats included in them, Sorry i did not make it clearer, my fixed over head is £3 based on ten hours work,

Everything is included.. I work it out on a yearly basis ie Running cost and Overheads and owt else, ok some expences are set which is easy to work out, but such as the sort of stuff that will cost more the more you rack up the miles ie tyres, servicing ect is worked out differently, on principle I worked it out on different mileages 5/ 10 / 20 / 30 thousand and so on ie a pair of tyres every 10 thou at £500, same for service for estimated yearly mileage and came up with different figures for 5 / 10 / 20 and 30 thou + then also calculated mpg say 45 into mileage then calculated this into litres to get a price, and came up with different running cost.. Ie more cost for less miles (.80p for 10 thou) and visa versa (40p for 40 thou). these price figures are not accurate but you get the gist.

Its not to bad if its just your van costs only but business cost incorporated is a different...

Well if you do 100,000 miles a year, assume 1/2 is paid, and lets assume 75pplm you get £37,500 If you also assume diesel to be £1.40 per litre and you do 10 miles per litre, then you have a fuel bill of £14,000. So your turnover of £37,500 is now £23,500... Less insurance, shall we say £2000?, GIT £200 cartax £200, MOT £50 and we're now at £21,250... And we haven't covered tyres, servicing the van, phone, exchange site membership and anything else i've missed.

So a "wage" of approx 20k for doing 2000 miles a week, at least a 10hour day, and i haven't mentioned putting monet aside for the new van tou're going to need every 3 years.

And my example is for 75pplm

Shall we do it for 60pplm?

50,000 paid miles @ 60pplm= £30,000 less fuel of £14,000= £16,000 less ins, GIT tax MOT and we're at £13,750 less tyres, service, phone, exchange membership and you're going to be lucky to get change out of 10k... And where do you get your next van from in 3 years?

And that in a nutshell is why i suspect very few have worked it out... Cos if they did, they'd realise it just isn't worth it

Now is that me being negative, or is that me telling you how it is?

Long Services said:

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Now is that me being negative, or is that me telling you how it is?

No thats it in a nut shell, thatll give em food for thought.. I think its called reality and not negativity.

[business] said:

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Well if you do 100,000 miles a year, assume 1/2 is paid, and lets assume 75pplm you get £37,500 If you also assume diesel to be £1.40 per litre and you do 10 miles per litre, then you have a fuel bill of £14,000. So your turnover of £37,500 is now £23,500... Less insurance, shall we say £2000?, GIT £200 cartax £200, MOT £50 and we're now at £21,250... And we haven't covered tyres, servicing the van, phone, exchange site membership and anything else i've missed.

So a "wage" of approx 20k for doing 2000 miles a week, at least a 10hour day, and i haven't mentioned putting monet aside for the new van tou're going to need every 3 years.

And my example is for 75pplm

Shall we do it for 60pplm?

50,000 paid miles @ 60pplm= £30,000 less fuel of £14,000= £16,000 less ins, GIT tax MOT and we're at £13,750 less tyres, service, phone, exchange membership and you're going to be lucky to get change out of 10k... And where do you get your next van from in 3 years?

And that in a nutshell is why i suspect very few have worked it out... Cos if they did, they'd realise it just isn't worth it

Lets not forget VAT if they charge it.. Heres a thought, what if they only pay 60pplm regardless of vat or not take it or leave it, thats gonna be tough...

[business] said:

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Well if you do 100,000 miles a year, assume 1/2 is paid, and lets assume 75pplm you get £37,500 If you also assume diesel to be £1.40 per litre and you do 10 miles per litre, then you have a fuel bill of £14,000. So your turnover of £37,500 is now £23,500... Less insurance, shall we say £2000?, GIT £200 cartax £200, MOT £50 and we're now at £21,250... And we haven't covered tyres, servicing the van, phone, exchange site membership and anything else i've missed.

So a "wage" of approx 20k for doing 2000 miles a week, at least a 10hour day, and i haven't mentioned putting monet aside for the new van tou're going to need every 3 years.

And my example is for 75pplm

Shall we do it for 60pplm?

50,000 paid miles @ 60pplm= £30,000 less fuel of £14,000= £16,000 less ins, GIT tax MOT and we're at £13,750 less tyres, service, phone, exchange membership and you're going to be lucky to get change out of 10k... And where do you get your next van from in 3 years?

And that in a nutshell is why i suspect very few have worked it out... Cos if they did, they'd realise it just isn't worth it

What a complete load of bollocks, are you trying to say that's what owner drivers earn? Do you base this on what you pay ods? Do you take into consideration that not all one man bands are thick and most have their own customers paying £1.30 to £1.50 Plm? No I didn't think you did, if your scenario was the case how come I know many one man bands who thrive and prosper (and many that dont)and are still in business 3 / 5 / 10 years down the line? I do and always will encourage new starters into transport good luck to all of them and long may it continue, I have always had this theory that the really busy guys don't end up on forums spouting hot air and have a major opinion on most subjects, and before people ask, yes I was banned from Courier Exchange on a number of occasions for upsetting some big hitters.

This is based on 2 x subbing rates of 75pplm and 60pplm... It is an example only, and does not take into account any "customers" that the OD may or may not have. There are many OD's who rely solely on subbing from exchange site, and my examples are an illustration of rates that have been discussed on here and elsewhere. They are also indicitive of rates some courier companies are paying their drivers, so why not illustrate what that means after expenses have been taken into account.

I too encourage those that want to come into this industry, but too many are coming in without doing their homework and like it or not there are those that DO rely on work from exchange sites only.

Have a look at the various threads on here and codforum.. These are the rates being discussed

I find it easier to budget by splitting the fixed costs (insurance, VED, GIT, depreciation, phone etc) from the variable costs (Fuel, servicing, tyres) so that the sums can be done easily for any annual mileage scenario.

Example; VAT registered O/D buys second hand Combo for £8k with write off after 4 years

Fixed costs approx 4250 pa mileage 20k gives 21.25 fixed cost ppm mileage 50k gives 8.5 ppm mileage 80k gives 5.3 ppm

Variable costs at 45mpg (115ppl ex-VAT), cheap service at 10k and tyres all round at 50k fuel 11.3 ppm service 1.2 ppm tyres 0.5 ppm Variable costs total 13 ppm

Total costs (fixed + variable) 20k gives 34.25 ppm 50k gives 21.5 ppm 80k gives 18.3 ppm

Assuming 80k miles per annum and 60% loaded miles ; 60 pence per mile paid leaves (41.7x80000x0.6) £20016 for the driver before TAX/NI 70 pence per mile paid leaves (51.7x80000x0.6) £24816 for the driver before TAX/NI

Catastrophies happen, this is a best case scenario with no blown engines, punctures, parking/bus lane tickets,

[business] said:

Shall we do it for 60pplm?

50,000 paid miles @ 60pplm= £30,000 less fuel of £14,000= £16,000 less ins, GIT tax MOT and we're at £13,750 less tyres, service, phone, exchange membership and you're going to be lucky to get change out of 10k... And where do you get your next van from in 3 years?

And that in a nutshell is why i suspect very few have worked it out... Cos if they did, they'd realise it just isn't worth it

If someone was to do it the way you describe, then obviously they might as well go get a job at minimum wage.

However, what you do not take into account, that the owner driver might just be smarter than you think. What I mean by smart is - 'working smart', they realise there are extra revenue opportunities beyond the obvious and also, no one is going to get a return or co-load, if you do not 'get moving' in the first place.

Another example - Tesco do not make any money by selling only the 'half price deals' they entice you into the store with break even deals, but once inside the store, you are more than likely going to fill your basket with higher margin goods.

It is of course a risk, but then that is what running your own business is about, risk vs reward. Some will make it work for themselves, obviously others will not.

Robinson Express said:

It is of course a risk, but then that is what running your own business is about, risk vs reward. Some will make it work for themselves, obviously others will not.

Thats what this thread is about... have they done their homework?

Well, at least I am not going off topic :-)

I have not had a back load or co-load yet ce, so the numbers have to be work on getting the price for the load in the first place, cannot run on dreams, maybe in a few months when i have made new contacts, but for any one starting out, very difficult to juggle loads/find loads when driving, cannot co-load because of del times will be out, I do not want to let anyone down so will not co-load, I am trying to provide a quality service, not a piss poor one!

Hi Ilkley, there is a saying in the 'Sales' trade, that 80% of revenue is brought in by only 20% of the sales force. I have observed a similar pattern with couriers, and I would say that a small percentage of couriers are getting the lions share of co-loads and return jobs. Why is this? I would say they have cracked the code of how to make it work. It's not easy, but there are certainly those out there who are doing it, year after year.

May be your right, about the numbers, but how many are starting out? most start up business lose money in the first year, how many of the couriers you are peddling the dream to are co-loading and getting regular backloads?

Plus why is someone who knows everything is sat on the end of a phone making no money instead of out in a van earning their millions?

Barnett Group said:

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Plus why is someone who knows everything is sat on the end of a phone making no money instead of out in a van earning their millions?

If you mean me, I am looking at the long game :-)

Akhtar Haulage said:

how many of the couriers you are peddling the dream to are co-loading and getting regular backloads?

Probably the same number I have already quoted. You can show someone who to do something, but at the end of the day, you can't do it for them.

Ultimately, there isn't room in any industry or trade, for 'everyone' to be successful. He who dares wins, as the saying goes.

Robinson Express said:

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Barnett Group said:

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Plus why is someone who knows everything is sat on the end of a phone making no money instead of out in a van earning their millions?

If you mean me, I am looking at the long game :-)

How long have you been going as crv and now you are an expert? (in your own mind)

Yet not making any money yet telling everyone there is mega bucks to be made out on the road, why not play the easy short game and makes lots of money now or is it all a load of bull?

Barnett Group said:

Yet not making any money yet telling everyone there is mega bucks to be made out on the road, why not play the easy short game and makes lots of money now or is it all a load of bull?

I am not sure where I am telling anyone there is mega bucks! I am simply pointing out that some people are making a greater success of it than others.

Not making any money and re-investing your profits are 2 very different things. I choose to re-invest to make Robinson Express a better business and a greater long term asset.

So you are saying there isn't much money to be had even if you do it 'The CRV way'?

Robinson Express said:

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there is a saying in the 'Sales' trade, that 80% of revenue is brought in by only 20% of the sales force. I have observed a similar pattern with couriers, and I would say that a small percentage of couriers are getting the lions share of co-loads and return jobs. Why is this? I would say they have cracked the code of how to make it work. It's not easy, but there are certainly those out there who are doing it, year after year.

If this is true, and some couriers are taking jobs at rates which are in the long run unsustainable then there are a lot of couriers not making any money, then the courier business is not quite the money spinning venture some portray it to be

[business] said:

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Robinson Express said:

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there is a saying in the 'Sales' trade, that 80% of revenue is brought in by only 20% of the sales force. I have observed a similar pattern with couriers, and I would say that a small percentage of couriers are getting the lions share of co-loads and return jobs. Why is this? I would say they have cracked the code of how to make it work. It's not easy, but there are certainly those out there who are doing it, year after year.

If this is true, and some couriers are taking jobs at rates which are in the long run unsustainable then there are a lot of couriers not making any money, then the courier business is not quite the money spinning venture some portray it to be

The courier business is no different to any other industry, some make it work, others don't. But we all have the same opportunities.

How the hell do you know that tesco don't make any money on there half price goods, can you send me some proof please?

Wood & Sons said:

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How the hell do you know that tesco don't make any money on there half price goods, can you send me some proof please?

Lol, I never thought I would actually start a debate about supermarkets!

It's generally accepted that supermarkets have loss leaders.

That's right Courier Expert - as someone who has worked in the petrol station industry, even fuel is virtually a loss leader to entice people into larger and larger shops where the profit is made on shop goods.

This is why the days of the small petrol station are virtually numbered except in very rural areas!

The analogy doesn't really transfer to courier work when you have one product to sell.

It does. What the expert is saying is 80% of the people doing work for him make no money but 20% get a backload and make a few quid a week.

The point was.... Get your self moving and you then have 'load space' to sell at a competitive rate, perhaps a half load going in a similar direction or an entire empty van coming home.

Very interesting thread, for someone like me, who is still at the research stage.

Barnett Group said:

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It does. What the expert is saying is 80% of the people doing work for him make no money but 20% get a backload and make a few quid a week.

That is not what the expert is saying at all, some people seem very keen to put words in my mouth. Just remember they are your words, not mine :-)

So are you going to explain it then or ignore questions like you usually do, like the one whereby you tell how you are the UK number one courier expert when you are nothing of the sort?

Barnett Group said:

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So are you going to explain it then or ignore questions like you usually do, like the one whereby you tell how you are the UK number one Robinson Express when you are nothing of the sort?

If you are asking how much profit owner drivers make from sourcing work from Robinson Express, royal mail sameday, mt van and Courier Exchange and other sources, i really couldn't tell you any more than the others companies i have just mentioned could. Only the owner drivers, who do their own accounts, can tell you the answer to this. All I can say, is how much we pay per mile - that's it.

As for who is the number one Robinson Express - i have no idea on that one either, lol.

Robinson Express said:

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The point was.... Get your self moving and you then have 'load space' to sell at a competitive rate, perhaps a half load going in a similar direction or an entire empty van coming home.

The problem is doing this delays the primary job and this isn't the service I'm selling, if its the service you're selling ensure your customers are aware of this when quoting.

[business] said:

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Robinson Express said:

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The point was.... Get your self moving and you then have 'load space' to sell at a competitive rate, perhaps a half load going in a similar direction or an entire empty van coming home.

The problem is doing this delays the primary job and this isn't the service I'm selling, if its the service you're selling ensure your customers are aware of this when quoting.

I wouldn't imagine that you would have much 'load space' to sell on a motorbike, lol.

[business] said:

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Robinson Express said:

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The point was.... Get your self moving and you then have 'load space' to sell at a competitive rate, perhaps a half load going in a similar direction or an entire empty van coming home.

The problem is doing this delays the primary job and this isn't the service I'm selling, if its the service you're selling ensure your customers are aware of this when quoting.

Anyway, joking aside, I completely agree with you. Be upfront and honest if you have another job on - leave it to the vendor to decide if they are prepared to deal with a co-load.

Robinson Express said:

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Barnett Group said:

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So are you going to explain it then or ignore questions like you usually do, like the one whereby you tell how you are the UK number one courier expert when you are nothing of the sort?

If you are asking how much profit owner drivers make from sourcing work from courier expert, royal mail sameday, mt van and Courier Exchange and other sources, i really couldn't tell you any more than the others companies i have just mentioned could. Only the owner drivers, who do their own accounts, can tell you the answer to this. All I can say, is how much we pay per mile - that's it.

As for who is the number one courier expert - i have no idea on that one either, lol.

On your site you say it is you

Barnett Group said:

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Robinson Express said:

As for who is the number one Robinson Express - i have no idea on that one either, lol.

On your site you say it is you

Well if it says it there, then i suppose i must be, lol :-)

Notice i'm saying nothin!

Your absence had not escaped my attention, you must be have been trying very hard, lol.

Robinson Express said:

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Barnett Group said:

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Robinson Express said:

As for who is the number one courier expert - i have no idea on that one either, lol.

On your site you say it is you

Well if it says it there, then i suppose i must be, lol :-)

So what are you hiding then, you register as courier expert, you put on YOUR site that you are the number one courier expert but hide behind the usual rubbish and refuse to answer anything about it?

Not really Andrew... Heard it all before...

Anyway I believe the topic is about overheads, and whether many bother to work them out.

I personally don't think a lot do, and despite what some of the less informed may think, there are an awful lot of couriers who rely solely on getting work from Courier Companies either directly or via exchange sites such as this one.

And as such the rates discussed are relevant.

It is clear that unless you have some customers of your own at "retail" rates, then relying on subbing from exchange sites only is unworkable unless you are fortunate enough to have the time and inclination (and luck) to either co-load, get a return, or both. We all know how luck plays an important part in both, so building a good reputation by networking and taking time to get yourself "out there" is essential. Work for someone who knows what they're doing, and some of this will be done for you, but relying solely on exchange sites to make a living isn't what any of them were designed for, or what anyone of them promise to be there for.

However this seems to have been lost on some, so it is no surprise to me that there are a lot of newbies who struggle.

As Les so eloquently put it my example earlier shows that "its a complete load of bollox" to be basing your model at 100% "trade" rates.

The example was there to show precisely that (i think he may have missed the point)

Barnett Group said:

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Robinson Express said:

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Barnett Group said:

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Robinson Express said:

As for who is the number one Robinson Express - i have no idea on that one either, lol.

On your site you say it is you

Well if it says it there, then i suppose i must be, lol :-)

So what are you hiding then, you register as Robinson Express, you put on YOUR site that you are the number one Robinson Express but hide behind the usual rubbish and refuse to answer anything about it?

I guess I must be an expert at something then :-)

Ahem...this topic is about working out your overheads... Lets not get another one closed eh? Happening all too often nowadays

[business] said:

It is clear that unless you have some customers of your own at "retail" rates, then relying on subbing from exchange sites only is unworkable unless you are fortunate enough to have the time and inclination (and luck) to either co-load, get a return, or both.

Then there are either some 'lucky' couriers around or maybe they are just smart, hard working and persistent :-)

As I have said before, there isn't enough room at the top for everyone to be successful, but we all have the same opportunity in front of us.

Long Services said:

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Ahem...this topic is about working out your overheads... Lets not get another one closed eh? Happening all too often nowadays

Hear hear, lol.

Being a successful courier takes hard graft... And there are some that expect it to fall into their laps... But i also must say that some responsibilty must lie in those that mislead.

If you get out there, introduce yourself, network, join exchange sites, and make them work for you, whilst at the same time getting some of your own customers, then you stand a better chance of making it work for you than relying on someone else to do it all for you.

But you must do your sums. How many times have we heard people ask what rates to charge?

There is only one person that can answer that... And that is you

[business] said:

If you get out there, introduce yourself, network, join exchange sites, and make them work for you, whilst at the same time getting some of your own customers, then you stand a better chance of making it work for you than relying on someone else to do it all for you.

I agree, don't have all your eggs in the one basket. In any case, you really are only going to feel truly like you are your own boss, by taking work from more than one source.

[business] said:

But you must do your sums. How many times have we heard people ask what rates to charge?

There is only one person that can answer that... And that is you

I think people are just trying to establish what the going rate is, so they can be competitive. It's all well and good calculating your own rates and sticking to it, but at the end of the day, you need to be competitive in what is, a very competitive matketplace.

Robinson Express said:

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[business] said:

But you must do your sums. How many times have we heard people ask what rates to charge?

There is only one person that can answer that... And that is you

I think people are just trying to establish what the going rate is, so they can be competitive. It's all well and good calculating your own rates and sticking to it, but at the end of the day, you need to be competitive in what is, a very competitive matketplace.

I agree with this.

Long Services said:

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If you get out there, introduce yourself, network, join exchange sites, and make them work for you, whilst at the same time getting some of your own customers, then you stand a better chance of making it work for you than relying on someone else to do it all for you.

And I definitely agree with this. Pretty sure if I were a courier I'd be trying to get as much of the best paid work from my own customers as possible and be doing my best to find any other work that I could fit around it well, be that from my own customers or subbing for someone through an exchange or directly.

Akhtar Haulage said:

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My over heads are worked out per mile, the point i was trying to make is whats included in them, Sorry i did not make it clearer, my fixed over head is £3 based on ten hours work,

I would suggest that your real overheads are those costs that you still have whilst you are NOT working.

Any cost which can rise as a result of actually using a vehicle is not an overhead.

That's what I suggested yesterday, splitting costs into fixed and variable. Example I gave with fixed ccosts at 4250 pa gives overheads (fixed) costs of just under £20 per day if you say 220 working days a year. Everything else (variable) depends on mileage done.

Williams Transport said:

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Akhtar Haulage said:

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My over heads are worked out per mile, the point i was trying to make is whats included in them, Sorry i did not make it clearer, my fixed over head is £3 based on ten hours work,

I would suggest that your real overheads are those costs that you still have whilst you are NOT working.

Any cost which can rise as a result of actually using a vehicle is not an overhead.

This is a good point and one that I think some people must have missed.

Website Admin said:

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Robinson Express said:

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[business] said:

But you must do your sums. How many times have we heard people ask what rates to charge?

There is only one person that can answer that... And that is you

I think people are just trying to establish what the going rate is, so they can be competitive. It's all well and good calculating your own rates and sticking to it, but at the end of the day, you need to be competitive in what is, a very competitive matketplace.

I agree with this.

That is all very well, but there comes a point when it just isn't worth doing, and some of the rates i've seen being mentioned (and these guys are not co-loading or going back home) come into that category. An example of 60pplm outbound with a 60% chance of a return load, means a 40% chance of not getting a return load. I'm not having a dig at the company that mentioned this, but the figures speak for themselves. 60pplm may well be competitive, but its so competitive that the courier cannot make a living from it. And thats when its gone too far.

[business] said:

I'm not having a dig at the company that mentioned this, but the figures speak for themselves. 60pplm may well be competitive, but its so competitive that the courier cannot make a living from it. And thats when its gone too far.

I do not think you can make such a generalisation. For example, one courier could by a new van for £10k, while another buys a used van for £2k. The insurance may differ (depending on age and driving record from £3k to £1k. The cost of fuel differs from £1.40 to £1.15 depending if you are VAT registered or not. So with such a varying cost base, everyone's profit level is going to be different.

Finally, if you are correct in what you say about 60ppm, then are the couriers who take work off some of the nationals at 45p-50p per mile actually making or loss?

Yes Andrew, they are IF they are doing just one drop, but as you know, the reason the "Nationals" get away with it is because they have the volume, so it is rare that a driver is asked to do one drop... The unfortunate thing a lot of the time their customer is unaware their delivery is one of many being done by that driver, then again, that aids us all when said customers are let down becasue the driver has got too much to deliver, so ends up running late

The problem is there are some out there trying to be competitive WITHOUT the volume, so the one that suffers is the courier. There are many that offer a service, rather than an auction house, because their customers want their goods picked up now, and delivered now, with no diversions, no stop offs, and no waiting around for another load. That service comes at a price, a price that reflects what is expected from the courier.

I think there are some that confuse the two and try and offer the service i talk about, but at a lower price, and i don't think the two go together

About a quarter of our jobs (possibly even one third) are booked ahead, anywhere from 3 hours notice to 1-2 days. These jobs (apart from some obvious negotiation) are taken at around sameday rates. Therefore, these jobs have huge potential for working something else around it - be it in the same direction - or coming back.

The point really is that no 2 jobs are the same- and there are couriers who do seem to have successfully made this work for them. I know of couriers on my books and on here who do it - and make it work without upsetting anyone.

I do however agree that 45p per mile is never going to work, unless you are going to get regular return jobs at a similar rate. There is only 1 big national (possibly 2) that is in a position to offer this.

And as i said in another thread, all they do is remind customers that sometimes its not about price at all, but the serivce that goes with it

Long Services said:

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The problem is there are some out there trying to be competitive WITHOUT the volume, so the one that suffers is the courier. There are many that offer a service, rather than an auction house, because their customers want their goods picked up now, and delivered now, with no diversions, no stop offs, and no waiting around for another load. That service comes at a price, a price that reflects what is expected from the courier.

I think there are some that confuse the two and try and offer the service i talk about, but at a lower price, and i don't think the two go together

I like this very much :-)

I can only comment from an owner drivers point of view. I know exactly what my running costs are and how much I need to earn to pay them and make a wage. The difference today compared to the late nineties is that back then as many will know the rates were not much less than they seem to be now, in fact some were probably even more. Back then before exchange sites you picked up, delivered and came back. I definitely wasnt rich but I managed. I know in todays market with rates as they are and all other costs involved you have to look at your running costs alot more closely. However because today we have exchange sites and the opportunity to make contact with good courier companies all over the uk as a owner driver who gets all my work from exchange sites and direct from courier companies I know I could not survive by working like I did in the nineties. Therefore you have to adapt to the current climate. I can either sit and moan about rates or try and work around it or give up and go home. I work around it by not returning home and take the hotshots wherever they go. Sometimes I will take a risk and run empty to a better place for work, sometimes it work and sometimes it doesnt. I took a job loading from North east to south coast 10am not tipping till 10am next day with the thought that I could get a small van co load down that same day, it worked and I got paid twice for the same trip not affecting either customer. The point Im making is that it depends on how you go about it and how patient you are and what sacrifice you are prepared to make as with regards to covering your running costs.

Long Services said:

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The problem is there are some out there trying to be competitive WITHOUT the volume, so the one that suffers is the courier. There are many that offer a service, rather than an auction house, because their customers want their goods picked up now, and delivered now, with no diversions, no stop offs, and no waiting around for another load. That service comes at a price, a price that reflects what is expected from the courier.

I think there are some that confuse the two and try and offer the service i talk about, but at a lower price, and i don't think the two go together

Yes, and when they get these jobs that pay the going rate they then sub it out on Courier Exchange or the likes of here creaming 40 to 50 pplm off for making a phone call and then the guy who does the job for 60/70/80 pplm gets slagged off for bringing the industry down! I'm afraid there are many on these exchange sites that need to take a long hard look at themselves and their associates

In no way am I infering you are one of these people Rob.

And ive just finished another 12 hour day... Phew!

I though a day was 24hrs?

As a newbie doing their research, I would be very interested in the calculations you guys use, I know I wil have fixed annual costs such as correct h&r insurance, git, pl a couple of services tax on car/van. But as someone who has yet to take his first steps, how will I know the kinda miles i'm going to be doing on a weekly or monthly basis? getting this question asked from insurance companies too i'm guessing around 40-50k?

Servicing is not an annual cost. Well it is if you don't drive anywhere, but you'll be doing a basic service every couple of months if you're busy (assuming 12000 mile service intervals).

Martin Logistics said:

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Servicing is not an annual cost. Well it is if you don't drive anywhere, but you'll be doing a basic service every couple of months if you're busy (assuming 12000 mile service intervals).

? Mine gets serviced about every 4 to 5 weeks at a cost of say £1,500 per annum, is that not an annual cost?

Mason Group said:

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Martin Logistics said:

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Servicing is not an annual cost. Well it is if you don't drive anywhere, but you'll be doing a basic service every couple of months if you're busy (assuming 12000 mile service intervals).

? Mine gets serviced about every 4 to 5 weeks at a cost of say £1,500 per annum, is that not an annual cost?

No it's a cost per mile. You wouldn't be servicing it that often if you weren't doing any miles.

Servicing is variable cost, if my mileage is 50k pa then vw say two longlife services is sufficient, 100k means four services. That is variable depending on mileage.