Strange but true

I do find it odd that we complain about costs , yet also want to stop the cowboys and flybynights dumbing down our industry. If you make it increasingly easy for someone to call themselves a courier, then you can't be surprised if standards drop. We now have lifestyle couriers (can't say i like the term but heyho) who use their cars, and use them without the necessay insurance too. Surely if we want to standardise our industry to stop this and other practises from happening, if we want our industry to be more professional, then we have to find ways of making it harder to be a courier.

Afterall, you can't just go buy a truck and call yourself a haulier. You have to pass tests, and adhere to some reglations, and rightly so.

You may think i'm trying to be elitist, i'm not. I just want to find a way of getting shot of those who have no place calling themselves couriers.

And for those that complain about certain exchange sites being too expensive i say good, i'm glad they are. That way i know those that are members have given it some thought and have done their homework.

Boring it may be Gary, but if we don't at least try, then what's the point?

I am a member of two exchange sites, neither of which provide me with work - one because the work all comes direct (so actually it was worth joining), the other because I don't run a car so I haven't paid to be a PRO member.

I've been a whitevanman for 15 years and think I'm pretty good at it. But as a subby pure and simple, tell me how I get work? I don't think you operate in my area (and it seems very few others do either). Because lately I've been struggling.

When are you going to open a depot in Keynsham?

I will be writing to the Transport Minister to try and obtain some sort of answer to our issue. It would be better if we can sort this out in house. If the E.u get hold of this then I fear for all of us.

There have been so many threads on the issue that "sorting it inhouse" seems unlikely. My personal view is nothing will happen until something bad happens, whatever that may be.

The most fustrating thing is that we are being penalised for doing things properly and legally, and that isn't right

I take my hat off to you Mr Speed you are exactly correct. I know we don't see eye on some things but thats democracy. I am not arrogant really I just see things from a different prospective.

I suspect you mean Perspective but yes, we don't have to agree on everything. It would be dull old world if we all did. Suffice to say, on this subject i would find it difficult to defend another view, unless you were the one exploiting the lifestyle driver, and even then i can't see how anyone could really, truthfully believe the argument they put forward

Unfortunately the unregulated industry we are in gives us more couriers than the industry can sustain. And any industry that has more than it needs sends prices downwards. Less Couriers, higher costs.

Supply and demand, so if you want higher rates, you need to limit the supply.

Legislate

Yes I do mean PERSPECTIVE. Its Sunday and I have indulged a little whilst listening to Jonny Walker on radio 2. Have a nice bank holiday.

As a Gary, I feel I must reply. Mr Speed a lot of what you say is true, but please no-more on costs. As a little boy struggling under cost as it is. Doing my best not to run for free but to pay the mortgage We could be liceinced like taxis showing we areinsured!

Being licensed is a good idea, but like it or not that will still incur a cost, as will anything you, i or anyone else comes up with to rid ourselves of the type of driver that is ruining our industry. I also think courier companies should also comply to some sort of legislation to stop the scamming. Personally i think exchanges sites are the obvious place to implement something

Tacho's in all light goods vehicles? A ban on cars being insured for haulage hire & reward? 6 monthly MOTs as a lot can change on a vehicle in 25-30k miles?

That should sort the cowboys?

Yeah let's get the government involved, I'm sure that will work out well for us all. NOT

Preston Courier Co Ltd said:

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Yeah let's get the government involved, I'm sure that will work out well for us all. NOT

Can't have it both ways?

Market forces are dictating that the rates are getting lower, self regulation can't work in a free market. Government regulation that promotes safer roads and a professional service can't make it any worse in the long run? Might be short term pain but if it gets rid of the cowboys and mean we can earn a decent living for a fair days work then what is their to lose?

No no keep the Dave twins in no10 out of it

GB Distributors (Bridgend) said:

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No no keep the Dave twins in no10 out of it

Don't think they will be there for much longer? So keep the cowboys on the road in beat up vans and rates that are bordering on slave labour? My business costs are 25p per mile ie 50pplm. If I work for 70pplm thats 10per mile at an average of 40mph (not inc loading) gives £4/hr thats assuming there are no dead miles, waiting, road works or traffic delays. Which is why I'm planning to get out in November as my life isn't worth the risk on the road for peanuts! Could earn more 25 yrs ago!

AM-PM Despatch said:

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GB Distributors (Bridgend) said:

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No no keep the Dave twins in no10 out of it

Don't think they will be there for much longer? So keep the cowboys on the road in beat up vans and rates that are bordering on slave labour? My business costs are 25p per mile ie 50pplm. If I work for 70pplm thats 10per mile at an average of 40mph (not inc loading) gives £4/hr thats assuming there are no dead miles, waiting, road works or traffic delays. Which is why I'm planning to get out in November as my life isn't worth the risk on the road for peanuts! Could earn more 25 yrs ago!

How do you get to 25p/mile running cost for a small van? Mine is not one of the most economical but I still can't get it to as much as 16p/mile.

My LWB Boxer costs 26p per mile for fuel, insurances, maintenance and tyres.

I can't see self regulation working simply because of human nature, it is very hard to turn money away on a return leg. There are three points where regulation could be introduced - operator licensing, vehicle spec and condition and driving hours. That takes us down the route of becoming regulated haulage contractors which has its pros and cons.

The effect would be to drive up the demand for vans by reducing the amount of work each van can do and it would force a degree of professionalism into the industry - but we'd inevitably be sleeping in the vans as well. Operating costs would go up with all the paperwork and extra downtime but rates would reflect the new situation fairly quickly.

Agree

Just stop working for f*** all

Agree with that as well.

Sorry about language slip!

MyVanCan said:

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How do you get to 25p/mile running cost for a small van? Mine is not one of the most economical but I still can't get it to as much as 16p/mile.

It pains me to read stuff like this. What are you counting towards cost? Whether you call it costs or running costs, 16p/mile is not enough. For example, how much do you factor in for depreciation/replacement? Got to be between 5 and 10p. What about your wage?

Running costs should be re-defined as the figure to set against the charging rate per mile. It's alright saying "Charge what you need to make a profit", but if you have your costs wrong, your profit is wrong. If you don't know accurately what it costs to do a job, you can't work out how much to charge to make the profit you require. AM-PM says he wants (better than) 10p a mile to earn £4 an hour, so that takes 16p up to 26p, or a chargeable rate of 52pplm. But if you take his (and my) 25p plus 10p, that's gone up to charging 70pplm. At £4/hour, does anybody manage to have a pint on Saturday, or take the family to Bognor in August?

There are some who will no doubt come in here resurrecting the comment that running costs are separate from such as replacements and wages. But at the end of the day, running costs are what it costs you over a year to do everything, divided by the total mileage for the year. This is suggesting that a small van doing 50k a year costs only £8,000 - does nobody take a wage or set aside funds to buy a new van some time?

I'd rather have Dennis doing my sums than some of the others. Rock-on Den.

It cost 16.8p a mile if your van averages 40mpg at current prices

Sorry Dennis but I use the running costs of the van to work out how much profit I'm making on each job. I'm running a business, not working in a job.

It is exactly as you say, if you have your costs wrong, you get your profit wrong. The thing is though, that works both ways. I know my van running costs. I know my weekly fixed costs (yes I'm sorry but insurance is a FIXED cost). Anything I earn over a week, or a month, or a year, above that is profit.

Putting all your costs together in one figure and trying to add wages in too, gives you a distorted view of your profitability and that may cause you to turn down work which would otherwise have made you a profit. E. G. Heathrow to Glasgow at 65pplm. Doing it your way you'd turn it down because you think you'd be losing money on it. I'd take it and see the £160-odd profit as going some way towards my target for the week even if I come back empty (which I seldom do).

GB Distributors (Bridgend) said:

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It cost 16.8p a mile if your van averages 40mpg at current prices

If your small van averages 40mpg you need to find a more economical one.

Just stop working for f*** all I feel those days are getting less and less. The more borders opened the greater the influx of drivers who will work for lower rates. The rates have not improved over the last 20 odd years do we think this is going to change. There is no one with a big enough voice and not enough drivers willing to do anything about it. The Jarrow march and other protests get on TV but what really changes afterwards. French strike at the drop of a hat while the Brits moan. 'Stiff uper lips chaps, what oh'.

MyVanCan said:

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E. G. Heathrow to Glasgow at 65pplm. Doing it your way you'd turn it down because you think you'd be losing money on it. I'd take it and see the £160-odd profit as going some way towards my target for the week even if I come back empty (which I seldom do).

I wouldn't necessarily turn down Heathrow to Glasgow at 65pplm as it WOULD make me a profit, not a loss, but I fail to follow your £160-odd. I'd calculate more like £60.

How many times have people said "Price for one way only, do NOT rely on returning jobs to get you home and make a profit".

So I reckon Heathrow to Glasgow near enough 415 miles (at 65pplm = £270). That's 830 round trip (assuming zero dead pickup etc miles), between 15 and 20 hours driving. I reckon about £100 in fuel alone. So your profit is calculated only on fuel costs, because your van doesn't use oil, doesn't need servicing or tyres, etc, etc etc. So you make £160 for two days - sleeping in a layby in the van? Sorry, but I'd rather use my maths than yours. How much of that goes towards the monthly fixed costs? And if you don't get Heathrow to Glasgow, just Heathrow to London, how much does that make you at 65pplm for the time taken?

I'd think twice about doing two days hard driving for £60 profit (but I'd probably do it because this week I've earned sod all!!). But how about three times in a week, that's the sort of driving (2500 miles a week) to make money at 65pplm, 6 days for £180?

Or using your figures, to make £500 towards your running costs for the week, your living costs for the week, your fixed costs for the week. Or towards your £26,000 a year to cover it all for a year? Running costs, fixed costs, what's the difference? They have to add up to be covered by the £26,000 and leave loads for you to live on and put some into the piggy bank to buy the next van.

We have to see this stuff in the longer term than just "todays run". For example, how many newbies realise that come the day of reckoning, they'll have to fork out NI and Income Tax which they didn't remember when they agreed to 50pplm? I prefer to include a figure on my mileage costs to take account of those and all the hidden fixed costs.

I think I have employed the wrong accountant. Are you cheap Dennis?

Dennis said:

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MyVanCan said:

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E. G. Heathrow to Glasgow at 65pplm. Doing it your way you'd turn it down because you think you'd be losing money on it. I'd take it and see the £160-odd profit as going some way towards my target for the week even if I come back empty (which I seldom do).

I wouldn't necessarily turn down Heathrow to Glasgow at 65pplm as it WOULD make me a profit, not a loss, but I fail to follow your £160-odd. I'd calculate more like £60.

How many times have people said "Price for one way only, do NOT rely on returning jobs to get you home and make a profit".

So I reckon Heathrow to Glasgow near enough 415 miles (at 65pplm = £270). That's 830 round trip (assuming zero dead pickup etc miles), between 15 and 20 hours driving. I reckon about £100 in fuel alone. So your profit is calculated only on fuel costs, because your van doesn't use oil, doesn't need servicing or tyres, etc, etc etc. So you make £160 for two days - sleeping in a layby in the van? Sorry, but I'd rather use my maths than yours. How much of that goes towards the monthly fixed costs? And if you don't get Heathrow to Glasgow, just Heathrow to London, how much does that make you at 65pplm for the time taken?

I'd think twice about doing two days hard driving for £60 profit (but I'd probably do it because this week I've earned sod all!!). But how about three times in a week, that's the sort of driving (2500 miles a week) to make money at 65pplm, 6 days for £180?

Or using your figures, to make £500 towards your running costs for the week, your living costs for the week, your fixed costs for the week. Or towards your £26,000 a year to cover it all for a year? Running costs, fixed costs, what's the difference? They have to add up to be covered by the £26,000 and leave loads for you to live on and put some into the piggy bank to buy the next van.

We have to see this stuff in the longer term than just "todays run". For example, how many newbies realise that come the day of reckoning, they'll have to fork out NI and Income Tax which they didn't remember when they agreed to 50pplm? I prefer to include a figure on my mileage costs to take account of those and all the hidden fixed costs.

Spot on Dennis which is why I'm getting out! If you divide your fixed costs by your annual mileage you will get a figure to add to your variable costs. Lets not forget the more miles the more servicing, tyres, depreciation as well as fuel. As a guide I would say a professional rate for a small van is £1plm. Anything less and your selling yourself short or being taken advantage of. Driving up and down the motorway is not risk free(life or death wise) either?

Saddlebow Deliveries said:

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I think I have employed the wrong accountant. Are you cheap Dennis?

I don't employ an accountant. I learned how to do add-ups and take-aways 60 years ago, then followed that with divides and multiplies, fractions and decimals. I have never understood the need for an accountant for the likes of me - bit of a big lump to come out of my already meagre takings! But it's why I just have one "costs" figure. I did do HNC in business and finance 20 or so years ago and when I first started I began with all those fancy things like proportioning from one half year to the next, debtors and creditors and the like. But I concluded that (so long as I was scrupulously honest about it, the best approach was simply whatever goes out of my wallet is expenses at the time it goes out, so insurance for a year is paid there and then. I do mess with it though - total annual cost divided by 52, times number of weeks to date. For quite some time I used to figure depreciation into the equation. But then the taxman said I couldn't write down my van in two years even though I chucked it in and bought a new one every two years - he said it was still a fixed asset, I said it belonged to somebody else, I didn't have the asset any longer! So I switched to charging the mileage instead and came out better off - taxman's loss, my gain. Legal.

Am in search of a new accountant anyone know of one locally prefer to be female under 10st and knows all the ins and outs. Geez sounds like a dating site.