Small goods vehicle CPC consultation

Hi all,

First post so please go gentle ;)

I've seen a lot of threads on here concerning the need for greater regulation of the below 3.5t goods vehicle sector and have come across a couple of web pages which give a clue as to how things are progressing.

Firstly, this link is a post from the FTA reporting back from the conference back in March 2014, which formed part of the consultation process.

The second link is from a cpc training company so obviously has a VI in further regulation. However, it details the results of a survey carried out by the old DSA which showed that 56% of respondents were in favour of extending regulation to all who drive as part of their job.

I haven't found any more out on how this EU consultation is proceeding, but there does seem to be appetite from the public, if not so much from our own government and certain trade bodies.

My own view is that regulation would be a positive for us, but these things tend to come about as part of a consultation where the biggest players get to shape the new regulation with an eye on keeping newcomers out. Recently, I was involved with the peer2peer finance industry, where they had a consultation exercise over new FCA regulation. All that happened was that Zopa got the biggest voice and shaped things to cause them least disruption. So, the risk is that the DHL's and Geopost/DPD's of this world will shape any regulation and they are the very ones who favour more 'lifestyle' or as I call them 'pauper' couriers.

A more positive view of the outcome could be that CPC becomes a cataloguing or database exercise, which then opens things up for councils or other agencies to get involved with ensuring best compliance.

Yes there are many of us who think some sort of regulation is needed, whether by proper legislation or inhouse by us lot. The problem, as you suggest, is that if we continue to just talk about it, rather than doing something about it, someone will beat us to it, and taylor it for their benefit, rather than to benefit all.

I have a feeling our continued apathy toward something that should be taken more seriously will ultimately come back and bite us all on the bum

There needs to some sort of o licence for any vehicle that is used for h&r, motorbike to lgv this would cut the number of new start ups thus putting the price up

The nearest the local councils could do would be a taxi style regime of regular vehicle inspection with a plate on the vehicle saying 'licensed to carry goods for hire and reward'. Legislation would be needed to make using an unlicensed vehicle illegal. People need to realise that regulating the industry would be a good thing but won't necessarily have much impact on prices, there is no way to regulate prices in a free market. You can affect supply and demand but only temporarily.

Having done a CPC course for my bus licence I can tell you it is pretty much impossible to fail. If you turn up & can write your name you pass. The training wont help the industry but the cost of 35 hours training could weed out some of the cowboys.

Andy McTighe said:

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The nearest the local councils could do would be a taxi style regime of regular vehicle inspection with a plate on the vehicle saying 'licensed to carry goods for hire and reward'. Legislation would be needed to make using an unlicensed vehicle illegal. People need to realise that regulating the industry would be a good thing but won't necessarily have much impact on prices, there is no way to regulate prices in a free market. You can affect supply and demand but only temporarily.

That would be a good idea and ought to be enforced.
Same as the CPC course mentioned by AV couriers. The more weeded out the better!

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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Andy McTighe said:

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The nearest the local councils could do would be a taxi style regime of regular vehicle inspection with a plate on the vehicle saying 'licensed to carry goods for hire and reward'. Legislation would be needed to make using an unlicensed vehicle illegal. People need to realise that regulating the industry would be a good thing but won't necessarily have much impact on prices, there is no way to regulate prices in a free market. You can affect supply and demand but only temporarily.

That would be a good idea and ought to be enforced.
Same as the CPC course mentioned by AV couriers. The more weeded out the better!

Have you seen some of the prices that the councils charge just for a taxi, that in itself would put alot of startups off if they have no funds behind them.. plud brand new vehicles would be MOT'd every year until the age of 3 then mot'd twice yearly at a very high cost, which can only be done by the council.. Sorry Im agaist it, Im not one for lining the likes of the local (phat cats) councils pockets just for the hell of it...

Sorry I'm with Gary/Gas on this it will just line the coffers. Found out y/day that if you choose to do the CPC you can do just one unit fivetimes over, if you could stand the boredom and still pass, retake every two years someone will always be on a training course. Not really helpful to us lot I think!

Yes GB I did one unit twice yawn! Complete waste of time. Company was struggling to get everyone through before the deadline.

Just because you can find examples that don't work, or are expensive doesn't mean we should stay as we are. Regulation is needed. It is long overdue. It allows those to take advantage of those who have little to no idea about running costs, insurance etc etc.

True, Speed, but it should be for the better.

If you open a business in a council's area you have to register it and they have to inspect it. Where the business is mobile then the vehicle is inspected. Further, the council checks you have the qualifications to operate (at least in the catering business). Seeing that there are millions of vans in the UK and none of us know how many would want to register as a business who else, other than the councils, has the infrastructure to carry out inspections? Your H&R licence could be conditional on a twice yearly MOT, driving licence check, DCPC check and insurance check.

If courier companies were then to face council checks that they are only using licensed H&R carriers we would have some format that protects us from the cowboys. The alternative would be central government and VOSA, how long then until you have a tacho in the cab with you?

Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

Agree

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

Absolutely and as an added bonus the council would be able to monitor housing benefit claimants that might be using their van on the side, which would further discourage cowboys. Pity we haven't got a trade body to take it up.

I think any regulation would be good. Just another thought. Why has any Government of the day not introduced anything? Is it because a large amount of so called couriers would disappear along with the Chancellors fuel duty revenue?

Saddlebow Deliveries said:

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I think any regulation would be good. Just another thought. Why has any Government of the day not introduced anything? Is it because a large amount of so called couriers would disappear along with the Chancellors fuel duty revenue?

I think its likely that a lot of the cowboys, especially the 'travelling kind' use gas oil and don't pay much duty. I think it is because of the size of the problem, cost of preparation and implementation and the fact that the EU doesn't bother to regulate vans either. Ergo lots of work for little/no benefit.

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

I'm against it and for none of those reasons.

SMH said:

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There needs to some sort of o licence for any vehicle that is used for h&r, motorbike to lgv this would cut the number of new start ups thus putting the price up

Why do you want to cut the number of start ups and put prices up?

You want the courier industry to become some kind of closed shop? Think about how daft that sounds.

Andy McTighe said:

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Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

Absolutely and as an added bonus the council would be able to monitor housing benefit claimants that might be using their van on the side, which would further discourage cowboys.

You do realise it's perfectly legal and acceptable to be claiming housing benefit whilst working as a self employed van driver? Why would such a person be assumed to be a "cowboy"?

MyVanCan said:

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Andy McTighe said:

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Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Either/or works for me Andy, but having experienced the Hackney Carriage way of doing things, it works so i'd be all for it.

You have to ask why anyone would be against it really haven't you?

Its because their business wouldn't function, either as a driver because they have incorrect insurance, or a vehicle that isn't up to the job, or as a Company taking advantage of the unregualted industry we are all in by using the very drivers i refer to.

Absolutely and as an added bonus the council would be able to monitor housing benefit claimants that might be using their van on the side, which would further discourage cowboys.

You do realise it's perfectly legal and acceptable to be claiming housing benefit whilst working as a self employed van driver? Why would such a person be assumed to be a "cowboy"?

I think it was a generalisation. However, whether or not one agrees to a government paying allowances when someone is capable of working I think the assumption is that those doing so are probably driving for something to do rather than trying to build up a successful business, and might work at unprofitable rates, which in turn drives the prices down!

MyVanCan said:

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SMH said:

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There needs to some sort of o licence for any vehicle that is used for h&r, motorbike to lgv this would cut the number of new start ups thus putting the price up

Why do you want to cut the number of start ups and put prices up?

You want the courier industry to become some kind of closed shop? Think about how daft that sounds.

I agree with Simon, the more hoops one has to jump through would rule out those not serious about doing this properly. Generally new startups have not researched the business correctly and are desperate to work, even if obtaining riddiculous unsustainable rates!

It doesn't necessarily have to be council run, regulation is something that the RHA could get involved in, they already have the knowledge of road transport etc

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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MyVanCan said:

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Andy McTighe said:

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Absolutely and as an added bonus the council would be able to monitor housing benefit claimants that might be using their van on the side, which would further discourage cowboys.

You do realise it's perfectly legal and acceptable to be claiming housing benefit whilst working as a self employed van driver? Why would such a person be assumed to be a "cowboy"?

I certainly have no problem with anybody claiming any benefit they are legally entitled to, whether that be housing benefit or tax credits. What I said was council registration would discourage cowboys, not that claimants are cowboys.

Addams UK Express said:

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It doesn't necessarily have to be council run, regulation is something that the RHA could get involved in, they already have the knowledge of road transport etc

True, but they are a trade body and have no authority. Regulation without legislation is unlikely to work in an industry with so many one man bands.

Fair play, i guess lorries are a different ball game, anyone can get a van, i've seen builders doing courier work when their own work is quiet, shocking to see a van pull up that's got builders filth in the back, what message does that send out? I doubt there's any H&R insurance in place