Rip off

I've just seen on another forum that one of the members on here was boasting about giving subbies 60pplm

Anyone on here who admits to paying 60pplm is nothing but an expert in ripping off the naive

To justify this by saying its more than what Citysprint or Rico pay is, quite frankly, disgusting

I am staggered that they tried to justify such a rate.

If you're reading this then you should be ashamed of yourself, although I suspect you aren't in the slightest

To suggest I am a competitor of yours is insulting to me, We pay the going rate and do not rip anyone off

You need naming and shaming cos you give our industry a bad name

I agree anyone who thinks 60pplm is a fair rate then they should be ashamed. I've worked out costs based on a combo 1.7cdti and if you do 50k mile then to earn min wage you need closer to 90pplm and if you do 75k mile then around 80pplm. I think what most people forget is the vehicle needs repairing/replacing at some point @ 60pplm that is just paying to wear my van out and doesn't put roof over my head or food on the table. I would like to add that you can get away with it if you get guaranteed backloads but can you?

I agree,

However the likes of Rico and City Sprint do not seem to have a shortage of folk willing to work for such a pittance, and there I am afraid lies the blame.

The aforementioned have an admirable business model, so long as they can recruit naive drivers.

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

so long as they can recruit naive drivers.

There lies the problem too, one leaves the "industry" another 5 are there to replace and believe the bollox that is being shown to them.

As Rob said above, 60plm and proud of it? Get a grip you fool

And before he decides to come and have a go, WE pay a VERY fair rate and VERY quickly too. As a fellow Courier Exchange member I'm sure you will have access to our feedback which will tell you all you need to know about us.

Am I a clearing house? No Do we have our own customers? Yes Do we have our own vehicles? Yes Our own drivers? Yes

Half decent reputation? I would like to think so! Compared to some!

60pplm is the average rate in Leeds some only pay 50p. It is not viable for a owner driver. I spoke to one whom I do a bit of work for and negotiated better rate for most of hi Orkney. But still do the odd job at 60p another courier who only pays 50pplm said take it or leave it. I left it.

If drivers stopped working at these rates they would rise, along with end user rates.

MK Bikes said:

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If drivers stopped working at these rates they would rise, along with end user rates.

Spot on Tony!

HSP Couriers said:

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Am I a clearing house? No Do we have our own customers? Yes Do we have our own vehicles? Yes Our own drivers? Yes

Half decent reputation? I would like to think so! Compared to some!

Same here but I am no longer a Courier Exchange member,

No use having a go at people offering work at what is perceived to be an insulting rate, it is the drivers fault for doing it!

There is no sentiment in business and if someone is foolish enough to work for peanuts it is NOT the 'providers' fault.

MK Bikes answer is very true!

No comment!

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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I've just seen on another forum that one of the members on here was boasting about giving subbies 60pplm

Anyone on here who admits to paying 60pplm is nothing but an expert in ripping off the naive

To justify this by saying its more than what Citysprint or Rico pay is, quite frankly, disgusting

I am staggered that they tried to justify such a rate.

If you're reading this then you should be ashamed of yourself, although I suspect you aren't in the slightest

To suggest I am a competitor of yours is insulting to me, We pay the going rate and do not rip anyone off

You need naming and shaming cos you give our industry a bad name

Whilst tempted to not to fan the flames any further, I really can't let this pass without setting the record straight.

Speed: You used the word 'Boasting', in my opinion a deliberate attempt to whip up passions on here again and cause more trouble. Anyone can see who reads any of the recent exchanges on any forum, will see i am defending myself (zulu dawn style), not 'Boasting' as you claim. So what did i actually say?

Well, without copying word for word and to summaries the whole story, I said we are doing our best, in a difficult market. We started off paying 82ppm in 2010 and nearly went bust by the end of that year (our company report which has been circulating around will reflect this). So here we are 2 years later, paying 60ppm for a small van, that's 10-15ppm higher than many of the other nationals, City Sprint/Rico/Royal Mail Sameday. If we could pay more, we would, and i am sure more couriers would flood in and sign up with us, but it would not last and neither would we, so what is the point? Couriers are not the only one's who need paying, I also need to make enough to pay controllers, admin and call centre staff. We are certainly not making profits off the back of owner drivers, or even an profits at all.

We are predominantly competing with clearing houses (for want of a better word) who sub all their work out on exchanges at a lower rate than we pay our couriers. How do i know this? Our average pay out on an exchange job is lower, than the agreed rate we pay our couriers. Who's fault is that?

So how about having a go at the clearing houses on Courier Exchange who sell all their work off to the lowest bidder instead? Or is there certain people (or person) you do not want to upset?

Speed: I do not understand why you vent you anger at my company and not the other national companies (or clearing houses) who pay less than us? Do they have bigger legal budgets? Have they previously stopped your cyber bullying? Or are you just a man who cannot be reasoned with?

I can be reasoned with but you cannot defend the undefendable Again Andrew you are the one who comes on and tells the whole bloody world who it is we're all talking about

You'll note at no point have i said who I'm talking about

You know exactly what you're doing by "coming out" cos you know by doing so, it's highly likely the thread will be edited or even deleted. Very clever, but then that's you all over isn't it.

I have vented my anger at both Rico AND City Sprint so please don't make assumptions that I'm just picking on you.

My heart bleeds for you, hang on a minute i'm going for a hanky, people have low prices to get the work, they then think I want a decnt amount out of it that leaves me this much for the subbie, PLEASE don't go on about what other people pay, it's 2013 people work for a decnt profit 60 pence is an INSULT, I have noticed over the last few days that you try and justify you every move, but until people stop working for such a ridiculous low amount you will carry on and pay it.

Speed, i am not sure what you just threatened me with in that private message, but you seem to be implying you are the mafia or something similar. There is finally something we can agree on, you do not sound like a very nice man.

Andrew, if you nearly went bust by paying 82pplm then i respectfully suggest that maybe you should've done exactly that and walked away, taking your guide with you.

If 60pplm is the only way you can survive in this industry, then your business model clearly has a major flaw

I'm a very nice man Andrew, It is you private messaging me with idle threats from a solicitor that is bound to get an angry response from anyone, and i am no different in that regard.

You keep calling me a competitor, don't... I am not a competitor of yours, I run a viable business, you clearly do not

Courier Expert said:

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Speed, i am not sure what you just threatened me with in that private message, but you seem to be implying you are the mafia or something similar. There is finally something we can agree on, you do not sound like a very nice man.

This sounds like playground talk, we are supposed to be adults and business people lets all act like one, we are all in this game and on here for one thing to earn a living, could you run a van and make a decnt profit on 60 pence a mile, a simple yes or no will do, if you say yes then would you be so kind and explain how?

We offer a National collection and delivery service and pay a higher rate than most the other nationals and clearing houses. I won't be going anywhere, while companies bigger than mine are paying lower rates than i do. Have a go at the big guys with much more power and influence in this industry than i have. We are doing our best, in a very difficult market. You may not like our best, but it is better than most the others who operate in the same arena.

Topic closed? lol

I'm to infuriated to carry on with this topic.

You know what, some double standards going on here.

It seems it's ok to slag off Rico, City Sprint but not Courier Expert

Why is that?

Bl@@@y hell, I got slagged off on here for paying £1 Plm small van :-)

Does it matter what rates people are prepared to work for? A mate of mine has just started working for City Sprint and after 10 years as a courier he is earning more than ever, i.e. working every day £1plm and every journey has a backload @60 Plm, yes EVERY job he does and on occasions 2 collections on his return leg. So although I don't agree with such low rates who are we to criticise?

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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You know what, some double standards going on here.

It seems it's ok to slag off Rico, City Sprint but not Courier Expert

Why is that?

Don't know where this comes from as we haven't edited anything here (apart from fix few spelling mistakes).

You're welcome to criticise anyone you want as long as you keep things factual/objective.

Just shows how the written word is interpreted by different people in different ways. As I read it Speed was saying that Its alright by Courier Expert to criticise others but not him?

[Admin: I see, with you now! Yes you're right about how different different people will interpret stuff, anyway...]

Spot on 3D spot on

And that from a blind man!

But we digress.

All I said was that we pay more than others, which is a fact. I don't think what I have said about any of those companies is unfair or unreasonable.

Neither is what a growing number of people are saying about you Andrew

Me thinx you doth protest too much

Speed: I think i have a right to defend myself and that is all i actually do. I am all for reasonable debate, but you take it too far and make it too personal.

HSP Couriers said:

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Am I a clearing house? No Do we have our own customers? Yes Do we have our own vehicles? Yes Our own drivers? Yes

Half decent reputation? I would like to think so! Compared to some!

HSP: I have not directed anything towards you. We all know who the 'national clearing houses' are and as you quite rightly point out, you are not one of them. And again i am not critisizing them either, I am just saying that is what i have to compete with.

Ok Andrew, you like facts (unless you disagree with them, at which point they become smears lol)

So here are some facts about Courier Expert

This is the 3rd name which you have traded as (it may be more but 3 i know of)

You are trying to build a network of "prefered" drivers who pay you a one off fee, then a weekly charge to be a part of said network. You send them your blumph (or did in a previous guise) for them to distribute on your behalf, and any subsequent work you get from their hard graft will be offered to them at rates that are pitiful. These rates are at least 40% lower than what they would expect if they had distributed their own blumph instead of yours.

You offer to do all their invoicing etc etc ( I think thats the least you can do for such a pathetic rate) eand one of your prefered drivers has come onto another forum and admitted the rates are below the minimum wage

So far so good? If i've missed something please let me know

You have dozens of threads slamming your practise, and when you don't like it you threaten solicitors (I'm not sure naming the solicitors makes it any more legitimate or equally pathetic)

You slag off Courier Exchange when it is you yourself that needs its presence to cover work that isn't covered by your own network.

You suggest Courier Exchange rates are lower than 60pplm to justify your own ridiculously low rates

And you suggest that by paying decent rates, your buisness would go bust

I put it to you that your business plan is therefore unworkable, preys on the vulnerable, and naive and is undefendable

Pricing is low for both the drivers and the courier companies.

It is a sad fact but it's a matter of take it or leave it unfortunately.

We had drivers in at TNT back in 1999 and the rate has not changed by a single penny since, If i remember correctly they even tried to negotiate down in 2003.

If we have to use an outside subby i ask for a price, If it is too high i will try and negotiate, If i cannot cover it i simply have to pay what they want to keep our customer account serviced.

I had an urgent job earlier and was quoted by two subby nearest the job £1.25 per mile which i declined as it was more cost effective to send our own van 30 miles away to collect.

They weren't mtvan members and one called back to offer a 10% discount 30 mins later as it was a little bit quiet for him today. No s*"t sherlock came to mind.

I would have paid £1.00 a mile at a push.

I'm not sure this is relevant to this thread N&D

Rates are rates take or leave it, FFS grow up

What i was really trying to point out was that all sameday rates are too low and have been since 1995.

As SMH re iterated the rate is the rate given or requested at that particular time for that particular job, If the rate given is good then cover the job if not a polite decline is in order.

Negotiation is always an option.

If i get a call from anyone out of the blue (courier or end user) they get a price i want, take it or leave it doesn't both me either way, the thing that kills this job it "TRADE RATES".

A price is a price some people want more than others, and some will work for peanuts.

This is the one reason why i do not sub out much any more, 99.5% of our work is kept in-house apart from my 7.5t and 18t work which is sub straight out to the 1 person that gets all my bigger work.

And i have one company that does all my euro work

SMH said:

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Rates are rates take or leave it, FFS grow up

Not often I agree with a Burnley fan :-)

Rates are rates yes, but what i don't like is someone who is marketing themselves as helping the humble courier, when what they are actually doing is ripping them off. [Admin: (In your opinion)]

A self called "expert" selling a guide which states, and i quote "that’s still in business and a huge success" when it is he himself that states that at 82pplm his company would have gone bust, so has been forced to drop to 60pplm.

If you're ok having a... [Admin: Please don't just label people as something you feel they are when it's not proven to be factually accurate. I have no problem with talking about facts (mileage rates above) and stating your view that they're not viable etc etc.]

And lets face it, forums are hear for advice, to share your opinions, and to make people aware of charlatans, con men and scams

That's funny, I thought this forum was for you to impose your view on everyone else... [Snip]

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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You slag off Courier Exchange when it is you yourself that needs its presence to cover work that isn't covered by your own network.

You suggest Courier Exchange rates are lower than 60pplm to justify your own ridiculously low rates

I never slagged off the courier exchange, i simply said that i can, and regular do, cover jobs for less money on there, like the clearing houses do.

Andrew as you like facts so much can i remind you it is you who private messaged me not me who messaged you.

I don't do private, which is why you find my words of wisdom here for all to see.

Nothing i have said to you in answer to your private message is anything i wouldn't put on here

Shall we cut and paste it?

To openly admit to paying even less than the ridiculous rates you offer you ripped off couriers on Courier Exchange is something i'm not sure you should be admitting too... Lol

You really are quite a [Admin: This is exactly what we'd rather not have please.]

We're not going to get much more from this thread.

SMH said:

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If i get a call from anyone out of the blue (courier or end user) they get a price i want, take it or leave it doesn't both me either way, the thing that kills this job it "TRADE RATES".

A price is a price some people want more than others, and some will work for peanuts.

This is the one reason why i do not sub out much any more, 99.5% of our work is kept in-house apart from my 7.5t and 18t work which is sub straight out to the 1 person that gets all my bigger work.

Well said Simon! We try to keep everything in house too, or just a few trusted 3rd parties. It is the best way!

Also, as you say, the price is what I want or choose to pay, take it or leave it. People seem to worry too much about how others run their businesses but personally I couldn't give a monkeys left one!